The Interview You Probably WON’T See!

• August 24, 2015
• Lee H. Baucom, Ph.D.
• no comments

I wrote an article last week, noting my reaction to the Ashley Madison debacle.  It has continued to unfold.  At least two suicides are suspected to be linked to the release of private details.  The company emails are now floating around.  Political and media names are beginning to emerge as members of a website devoted to facilitating secretive cheating.

A reporter contacted me, and I recorded the conversation.  Glad I did!  By the end, I was seeing that this reporter wanted a quote, and not one the reporter got.  From past experience, that often means I will be misquoted — or at least quoted without context.  So, if I am quoted, here is the transcript:

Reporter:  Thank you for speaking with me!  I am betting it has been busy for you since the news broke over Ashley Madison.

Lee B.:  It did trigger a few emails and phone calls.  But to be honest, marriage problems are more than just a result of a database being released.  We stay pretty busy helping couples in trouble.

Reporter:  So, you haven’t seen any shift?

Lee B.:  Oh, we have seen more traffic and interest.  But I think right now, many people are trying to figure out what to do.  People with accounts are trying to decide what to to.  Come clean or keep hiding?  Spouses who have found their spouse had an account are trying to figure out what it means.

Reporter:  Well, it seems pretty clear-cut, doesn’t it?  The spouse was cheating.

Lee B.:  No.  I don’t think it is nearly that clear-cut.  In fact, I think there is a great more nuance to what is going on than the media is noting.

Reporter:  How so?

Lee B.:  Let’s just go with statistics.  Of the registered accounts released, which was approximately 36 million, from what I am hearing, 28 million were men.  Only a small fraction of those men were looking for other men.  So, most were looking for a woman.  There were only what, 6 to 8 million women?  And some people believe that many of the female accounts were faked.  Some believe that the company behind Ashley Madison made fake accounts, so they could lure men in.  Kind of like “ladies night” at the bar.  The owners put out bait.  Otherwise, the men don’t come — and don’t pay.

But let’s suppose those 6 to 8 million women were real.  Either they were very busy, or lots of men did not find a match.  Just numbers.

Reporter:  OK, but those men were looking.

Lee B.:  Even that is a bit more nuanced.  I think some men probably created accounts because of their fantasies.  They never really intended on action.  They were playing out a fantasy.

Reporter:  So you are OK with that?

Lee B.:  No.  It certainly indicates an issue, in the relationship and in society.  But it was not so clear as saying someone cheated.  Either by lack of opportunity or lack of desire, they did not actually use Ashley Madison to cheat.

Reporter:  It sounds like you are OK with Ashley Madison.  That you are letting them off the hook.

Lee B.:  Absolutely not.  The first time I read about Ashley Madison, I was on a flight to a conference.  It made me sick.  I actually got physically nauseous.  I could not believe a company would form around cheating.  And I read their tagline, “Life is short.  Have an affair.”

I had to apologize to the passenger beside me, as I thought and unfortunately said, “That is a pile of crap!”

But let’s be clear:  Ashley Madison did not invent cheating.  They just figured out how to profit, and profit well, by taking advantage of it.

Reporter:  So, you don’t think they contribute to cheating?

Lee B.:  I don’t think this data breach is going to change this.  It is like the Hydra from mythology.  Hercules took it on.  But every time he cut off one of the 9 heads, 2 came back.  Ashley Madison may be done.  But someone will replace them, only with the promise of super security.  Probably, it will be the same people behind Ashley Madison.

The issue is not the company.  It is the fact that some people are willing to live duplicitous lives.  They hold onto a marriage, and want to cheat on it.

Look, this data breach was illegal.  There are many people who will say, “I am glad they did it.  Now I know.”  And there will be a spike in divorces.  There will also be a spike in couples who decide to finally take a look at their relationship and make it real — address the issues and move forward.

I will admit I got a little bit of guilty pleasure when I first heard of the breach.  But this was still an illegal action.  It was an assault on the company.  It was also an assault on people.  What if the next breach is Sex Addicts Anonymous?  Names are released of people who are getting help — but still, their names are released.  Then, the next is for some other company.  The fact is, the breach was just illegal.  It will not stop the companies who will spring up and serve those who want to cheat.

Reporter:  I actually thought you would be happy to see this happen. . .

Lee B.:  I am happy when couples stay together, not because someone is cheating — or wanting to cheat — but because they decide to work on their marriage.  I am happy when people face their issues.  I am happy when people find a fulfilling and loving relationship.

I am bemused that this happened, and people are jumping on.  There is the company.  I despise the company.  There is the data breach.  I believe that was illegal.  There are the people now left out to clean up the pieces.  But I hear from people, every day, that discovered their marriage was not what they thought it was.  That happens, with or without this data breach.  As I said in the article you noted, the truth usually does come out.

Reporter:  You said you despised the company.  But you seem to be protecting them.

Lee B.:  There is nothing I can do to protect or harm them.  What I despise is that this company has one sole mission:   help people cheat, in secret, on a spouse.  That is all they do.  They create a way for people to contact other people, with the clear intention of cheating.  That is an immoral mission, in my opinion.

Reporter:  But what about Facebook?  People cheat on Facebook.  Or Snapchat.  People message their lovers on Snapchat?  There are others. . .

Lee B.:  There is a difference.  Facebook has let me keep up with friends from high school and college.  It lets me connect with others with similar interest.  Snapchat allows people to send silly messages.  I use it with my kids, just to snap a picture and add a caption.  In other words, they have other purposes and missions.  Not Ashley Madison.

Oh, and it is also a very hypocritical company.

Reporter:  How so?

Lee B.:  The husband and wife who run it at least claim to be monogamous.  In fact, in interviews, the wife admitted she would be devastated to learn her husband had cheated.  And yet, they run a company that creates that potential.  They say they were only exploiting an opportunity.  I think the exploitation is correct.  But there are plenty of opportunities out there.  Why choose one you would not want in your own life?

I have a friend that runs a fitness company.  Know why?  He is passionate about people being fit.  He believes in helping people to maximize their physical capacities.  He believes in what he does.  Yes, he makes lots of money.  But he is also doing what he believes in.  He is not at all hypocritical.

But here is a company that founded itself on making money being destructive.  They claim not to believe in it for themselves, but are glad to collect fees.  And according to most estimates, that amounted to over $100 million per year.  Quite a revenue for something you would not want in your own home.

Reporter:  OK.  So, what about the people involved?

Lee B.:  The people in the database?  Time to come clean.  Time to say, “I had an account.”  Then come clean on why.  Was it fantasy?  Time to talk about it.  Was it to cheat?  Time to talk about it.  Was it because someone was miserable?  Time to talk about it.  Issues can be solved, but not while they are hiding in the dark.

Reporter:  But maybe this is just an indicator that humans aren’t meant for monogamy.

Lee B.:  That’s crap.  I have heard that said.  But it seems to be for justification purposes.  Look, if you really believe that, fine.  But at least have the decency to let your spouse in on this little secret.  It isn’t fair to NOT be monogamous AND hide it from a spouse.

I feel the same about all the people who have written the “I had an affair and it saved my marriage.”  Justification.  They didn’t sit their spouse down and say, “this isn’t going the way I want it to.  Let’s figure this out.”  That is just the decent thing to do with a spouse.  At least be honest and say, “I am not happy here.”  And don’t wait until you are ready to take some action that jeopardizes everything.

Reporter:  So, if this isn’t just “in our genes,” what does cause the infidelity?

Lee B.:  I think there are clearly 2 pieces in play.  First, there is not enough connection between the couple.  They are not as connected as they need to be, so there is a yearning and a distance between them.  And second, there are not enough boundaries.  Boundaries are what protect the marriage.  They are the things you do to keep a marriage safe.  Maybe it is not having dinner with someone of the opposite sex, alone.  Or maybe it is making sure messaging is about a specific topic, not about emotional issues.  Or maybe it is about how you share your social media, phone, email, and other hiding places.

In the end, it is a commitment to stay connected and to protect the marriage.  Every marriage has times of disconnection.  So, you need the boundaries to keep it safe during those times.  Then, you work on the connection.

Reporter:  So what happens next?

Lee B.:  To the company?  I would be happy to see them end.  But something else will fill the space.  To the people exposed?  I hope they find a way to face this, to see the damage done, and to work to repair the damage.

Reporter:  Thank you for your time.

Lee B.:  Thank you.

NOTE:  If infidelity, including from Ashley Madison, has affected your marriage, here are some free resources to help you recover.